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Mar 9th, 2021, 12:33pm 
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Reson Lore
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Phoneme Issues With RealSinger   myr_sally_test.mp3
« on: Jan 6th, 2021, 11:52am »
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I've been experimenting a lot with RealSinger lately and there's one issue that I've repeatedly been having with my voice, other than robotic consonants that I easily fix when mixing
 
Sometimes the [ai] phoneme, like by and my, has a very loud [i] and I haven't sound any way to fix it. Any ideas? It's not a major issue but it annoys me a lot haha
 
I posted an example using my current voicebank to show what's happening
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #1 on: Jan 6th, 2021, 5:35pm »
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Perhaps you could use a SAMA sequence like [#aI] using the "I" phoneme (not the "i" that might sound too long. Just insert the sequence after the syllable, adding the consonant where needed. The sequence is not printed and doesn't mess the lyrics arrangement.
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #2 on: Jan 6th, 2021, 5:39pm »
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I tried that already but it didn't seem to help?
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #3 on: Jan 8th, 2021, 10:07am »
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I think that this problem with "my" (and others) is the same as the one raised by Dheo about "Christ".  
 
Sometimes, using Sampa gives a very bad result, and this is - at my experience - when an API/Sampa symbol is not defined in the current language.  
For instance, [#Krajst] in English will sound as "Chreest", perhaps only He knows why...  
 
In subtle situations, one is better off with fragments, since they are not language dependent (simply some are meant for a given language and have no example in another one).  
« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2021, 5:18am by Andre_B » offline

André Baeck, Belge vivant dans le Gard
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #4 on: Jan 9th, 2021, 6:54pm »
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Both Americans and British singers are prone to overdoing the diphthongs, and perhaps it would help to redo your Real Singer voice with less emphasis on maieeeee and baieeee?  I'm not sure how to indicate this in print, but perhaps something more like MAiee and BAiee?
 
One of the hardest things to teach Anglophone singers is to make their vowels pure when singing in Latin.  Almost every English vowel is a diphthong, and we're so used to it, we don't usually hear it.
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #5 on: Jan 10th, 2021, 9:03am »
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Very true that we are so used to it, but I would say than we don't not know that we hear it.  
 
In French, the only diphtongs we "know" have a semi-vowel, yod in second position ("oi") and digamma in first ("oi"). I didn't find an example of the two reverse combinations= , outside "regional" or "foreign" words.  
All these diphtongs ae written with at least two letters, and when I was a child one used the word "diphtong" even for single vowels made of two characters (ou, on,...)  
 
In English, I see other diphtongs too, such as (sampa) [#a@] - and single-letter vowels are often spoken as a diphtong such as [#eI] in "tape".  
 
Strange enough, French nationals will emphasize that by saying [#tejp"] when more nordic europeans, including french-speaking Belgians will - that I generally hear - fade it out ans say [#tep"].
 
I'm not fond of the Real Singer approach when it goes to record/pronounce individual fragments.  
Even the same person, recording something twice, will have different figures in the fragment description. Which makes it difficult to differentiate between accidental and systematic differences.  
 
I prefer an analytic approach, which will keep only significant differences, and be based on "listening" to the mouth position.  
 
Doing that, one will discover that the so-called "Nasal A" [#a~] - particular to French - is pronounced differently when written "en", "an","aon" or "am"!  
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #6 on: Jan 19th, 2021, 6:23pm »
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on Jan 10th, 2021, 9:03am, Andre_B wrote:
. . .
All these diphtongs ae written with at least two letters, and when I was a child one used the word "diphtong" even for single vowels made of two characters (ou, on,...)  

I believe that is because those vowels originated as diphthongs and became pure over time.  If I recall correctly from my linguistics course (which was a long time ago), professionals now reserve the term for combined vocalic sounds, regardless of the number of glyphs used to write them.
 
on Jan 10th, 2021, 9:03am, Andre_B wrote:
Doing that, one will discover that the so-called "Nasal A" [#a~] - particular to French - is pronounced differently when written "en", "an","aon" or "am"!  

Interestingly, a lot of my fellow French students at university could not hear the difference.  I was fortunate to be able to hear it, and to have a professor who worked hard at drilling us to reproduce it.  As a result, my French accent is pretty decent—until I get fatigued, when it turns to crap!  
« Last Edit: Jan 19th, 2021, 6:24pm by PaulL » offline

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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #7 on: Jan 19th, 2021, 7:37pm »
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on Jan 10th, 2021, 9:03am, Andre_B wrote:
Doing that, one will discover that the so-called "Nasal A" [#a~] - particular to French - is pronounced differently when written "en", "an","aon" or "am"!  
André, just come over to St Etienne, and you'll soon hear that people have their own way of handling the nasal A !  
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #8 on: Jan 24th, 2021, 4:53am »
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Hey, I completely forgot I posted this and I realised that I didn't explain things very well so here's a little bit more info:
 
It's not the recordings themselves like some suggested because it wasn't just a loud i: phoneme, it was more like two seperate phonemes playing and the i: happened to be a lot louder despite i: recordings generally being a lot quieter - so I'm pretty sure it's an equalisation issue more than anything
 
It only happens on certain words though, which was most confusing to me, it wasn't all words with aI phonemes.  
 
Thanks so much for all your advice though! I tried rerecording it but it didn't help much at all, which led me to work out it was likely equalisation related.
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger   aI_phoneme_resop.mp3
« Reply #9 on: Jan 24th, 2021, 4:59am »
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And about the emphasis thing, I've been recording English voicebanks for the program UTAU for nine years so I have experience with recording diphthongs without much emphasis.  
 
Here's the recording I used for this, just for some context
« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2021, 5:00am by Reson Lore » offline
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #10 on: Jan 24th, 2021, 8:53am »
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on Jan 19th, 2021, 7:37pm, bubu42 wrote:

André, just come over to St Etienne, and you'll soon hear that people have their own way of handling the nasal A !  

 
I guess so, but here too! It sounds almost like "ang".  
 
But I was referencirg to "regular French", not regional. When people sing here in French (in achoir), they pronounce "normally", i.e. without the "h".    
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #11 on: Jan 24th, 2021, 9:01am »
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Hello Reson,  
 
This lets me think that you consider this (and other) diphtong as a single phoneme, not as two consecutive ones. And I tend to agree.  
 
But unfortunately the International Phonetic Alphabet (and so Sampa) - at least the original ones - consider diphtongs as two phonemes (at least...). And the construction of Virtual Singer is based on that.    
 
I would like to have a look at the HA source from where your first example was created, and also to know a measure number where the problem is most significant.  
 
If it's too big to append, you can send it to gabr2@orange.fr
 
Thanks
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger   apple_and_cinnamon.myr
« Reply #12 on: Jan 25th, 2021, 1:59am »
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Sorry, force of habit from working with UTAU for so long!
 
I;ve attached a better example of this issue, where the ai problem starts in the first few bars sung, as well as an audio example. If needs be, I can also send the bank in it's current state, though it's incomplete.
 
Singing example - https://voca.ro/1hDZ1Gl6kTwQ
 
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #13 on: Jan 25th, 2021, 5:47am »
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Thanks, I had an eye (and an ear) on it.
 
What is the best case to work on? "mind" in bar 6?  "I'd' in bar 7? "like" in bar 8?
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Re: Phoneme Issues With RealSinger  
« Reply #14 on: Jan 25th, 2021, 6:01am »
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I'd is the worst offender there, thanks so much for the help
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