HomeProductsDownloadOrderSupportSearch
  
Myriad Forum « Latin gallican [DISPONIBLE] »
 Welcome, Guest.
 You can read all messages, but to be able to post,
 please Login or Register.
Apr 12th, 2024, 3:47pm 
   Myriad Forum
   Virtual Singer
(Moderator: Forum Administrator)
   Latin gallican [DISPONIBLE]
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2  Reply | Notify of replies | Print
   Author  Topic: Latin gallican [DISPONIBLE]  (Read 895 times)
SDoerr
Board Full Member
***





  stephen.doerr@yahoo.com  
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 231
Re: Latin gallican  
« Reply #15 on: Nov 3rd, 2023, 8:45pm »
Quote | Modify

on Nov 3rd, 2023, 4:47pm, ANdre_B wrote:
My "scolaire" is what I remember from my latin studies, around 1960, and we pronounced it same as liturgical latin, here in Belgium.  

In England, as early as 1870 there were proposals to reform Latin pronunciation, but there was opposition. Nevertheless, 'it was only in the early twentieth century...that the earlier prejudices began to be overcome in English schools and universities'. I can only imagine that the inertia was greater in Catholic countries.
 
Quote:
My sources on Roman pronunciation say either "always #gn as two consonants", either "/ŋn/" (which is sampa #Nn)
 
These phonemes are anyway quite difficult, dictionnaries confuse also. E.g. for the French "signe" they say   /ɲ/ which approximates to /nj/, as you said, and becomes two frangments +N+Y  
what would mean "signe" is pronounced as "sinye", WHICH IS NOT.  
Actual pronounciation has a pseudo-guttural followed by a pseudo-nasal.  

The English edition of the Liber Usualis (edited by the monks of Solesmes) says that GN should have 'the softened sound given to these letters in French and Italian, e.g. agneau, Signor, Monsignor'. The editors specifically say that their aim is 'to pronounce and speak Latin in the Roman Style so appropriate to Plainsong'.
 
As for the French pronunciation, consider the word dignement: is it two syllables or three? Larousse says: dinjəmɑ̃; vieilli diɲmɑ̃
Quote:

That I know, it should be the same as the english "sign" - though my disctionnary shows that as if it was "sine".  
 

Yes, sign is /saɪn/ in English.
offline

Steve Doerr
Gravesend, UK
SDoerr
Board Full Member
***





  stephen.doerr@yahoo.com  
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 231
Re: Latin gallican  
« Reply #16 on: Nov 3rd, 2023, 9:09pm »
Quote | Modify

on Oct 9th, 2023, 11:24pm, JP wrote:

Il serait bien que quelqu'un fasse les tables de prononciation pour au moins le latin gallican, le latin allemand et le latin anglais

The last would be of very limited application, I fear! The only time I have ever heard (unreformed) English Latin sung is in the Coronation anthem 'I was glad' (words from Psalm 121/122 Laetatus sum). At the entry of the King and Queen, the choir interjects 'Vivat Regina X, Vivat Rex Y', using the unreformed English pronunciation of Latin that began to die out in English schools from the early twentieth century. Thus Vivat is /ˈvaɪvæt/ and Regina /rɪˈdʒaɪnə/.
 
English Latin survives in scientific contexts (botanical and zoological names), in the law (e.g. Habeas corpus), and in fixed phrases like et cetera, but none of those generally involve singing!
offline

Steve Doerr
Gravesend, UK
JP
Board Master
*****






   
WWW | Email

Gender: male
Posts: 3317
Re: Latin gallican  
« Reply #17 on: Nov 4th, 2023, 10:59am »
Quote | Modify

on Nov 3rd, 2023, 9:09pm, SDoerr wrote:

The last would be of very limited application, I fear! The only time I have ever heard (unreformed) English Latin sung is in the Coronation anthem 'I was glad' (words from Psalm 121/122 Laetatus sum). At the entry of the King and Queen, the choir interjects 'Vivat Regina X, Vivat Rex Y', using the unreformed English pronunciation of Latin that began to die out in English schools from the early twentieth century. Thus Vivat is /ˈvaɪvæt/ and Regina /rɪˈdʒaɪnə/.
 
English Latin survives in scientific contexts (botanical and zoological names), in the law (e.g. Habeas corpus), and in fixed phrases like et cetera, but none of those generally involve singing!

What I call "English latin" is the pronunciation we can hear everyday when listening to a record of works in latin made by English or American choirs, and probably choirs from some other countries.
It's not the "Roman pronunciation", nor the "German pronunciation", it's something special that probaly people having Englsh as native language don't notice.
offline
ANdre_B
Board Master
*****





   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 2869
Re: Latin gallican  
« Reply #18 on: Nov 4th, 2023, 4:45pm »
Quote | Modify

What I find in the documentation under "English Latin" is a strong change from Roman. Roughly what HA would sing with a latin text, telling it that it's English. Such as your Vivat is /ˈvaɪvæt/ example.
 
Very similar (as a logical process) as the Gallican/French Latin, where "u" is the French U, essentially.  
 
In comparison, other flavours differ much less from Roman, and are more eligible to remain in use in parallel with it.  
 
Nowadays, the Gallican pronunciation remains in use only for latin words or expressions imported in French (cürricülom vité); as I understand you, it would be similar in English (how do you pronounce "Habeas Corpus", by the way?)
 
Gallican latin has been used in France (church and school) from  the late Renaissance till 1920, sometimes 1960 (apparently not in Belgium).  
And today's musicologists like to keep that - in concert - for works written in France during that period.    
 
I would expect the musicologists to recommend the "British Latin", similarly for works written in the anglo-saxon countries at the times it was current. Though that production might be less abundant than in catholic countries.  
 
But contemporary works written by John Rutter follow almost the Roman pronunciation, as I hear from recordings he directed.  
 
Jean-Pierre, I think that what you mention (today's British Latin) is not going so far, and differs only slightly from Roman.  
  
« Last Edit: Nov 4th, 2023, 4:49pm by ANdre_B » Logged

André Baeck, de retour en Belgique après 12 ans passés dans le Gard.
Windows 11, HA 997e (et précédents)
SDoerr
Board Full Member
***





  stephen.doerr@yahoo.com  
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 231
Re: Latin gallican  
« Reply #19 on: Nov 4th, 2023, 5:00pm »
Quote | Modify

on Nov 4th, 2023, 10:59am, JP wrote:

What I call "English latin" is the pronunciation we can hear everyday when listening to a record of works in latin made by English or American choirs, and probably choirs from some other countries.
It's not the "Roman pronunciation", nor the "German pronunciation", it's something special that probaly people having Englsh as native language don't notice.

Hmm. I'd say it is essentially modern Italian/Roman Latin with an English accent. The better the choir, the closer they come to an authentic Italian pronunciation, I would say. But it's an Italian model they're aiming for.
offline

Steve Doerr
Gravesend, UK
SDoerr
Board Full Member
***





  stephen.doerr@yahoo.com  
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 231
Re: Latin gallican  
« Reply #20 on: Nov 4th, 2023, 5:06pm »
Quote | Modify

on Nov 4th, 2023, 4:45pm, ANdre_B wrote:
how do you pronounce "Habeas Corpus", by the way?
  

/ˈheɪ.bi.əs 'kɔː.pəs/. In American, the r would be pronounced.
offline

Steve Doerr
Gravesend, UK
ANdre_B
Board Master
*****





   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 2869
Re: Latin gallican   lat-1.zip
« Reply #21 on: Nov 11th, 2023, 9:33am »
Quote | Modify

Avec l'aide non négligeable de Jean-Pierre (JP), je crois que je peux rendre disponible ce à quoi je suis arrivé.  
 
La pièce jointe est le zip d'un répertoire "lat-1", qui doit être mis dans  
C:/Program Files/Harmony Assistant/Virtual Singer/Languages, ou variantes selon l'environnement.  
Après redémarrage de HA, on choisit la langue "Latin Gallican", en 22ème position dans la liste.  
 
Le composant "latfr-frag.txt" peut aussi être placé dans ...Myriad Documents/Settings/Scripts/Virtual Singer/OtherLanguages.myf/  
pour être appelé par le script "Vitual Singer/Autres Langues" (ou "Virtual Singer/Other Languages") pour convertir les paroles en fragments.
Dans ce cas, la ligne de paroles devient illisible, il faut convertir une fois que les paroles sont bien au point.
Logged

André Baeck, de retour en Belgique après 12 ans passés dans le Gard.
Windows 11, HA 997e (et précédents)
Sylvain Machefert
Administrator
*****






   
WWW |

Gender: male
Posts: 7084
Re: Latin gallican [DISPONIBLE]  
« Reply #22 on: Nov 13th, 2023, 6:40pm »
Quote | Modify

Le fichier zip est à fournir à Olivier ou Didier pour incorporation dans la prochaine version de HA.
Il n'est peut-être pas possible, sur certains systèmes, de mettre des fichiers dans les programmes sans une autorisation spéciale.
offline

HA+HQ+VS+PdfToM, Reaper+Audiveris+Transcribe, Win10+Focusrite Scarlet 4i4+Nord Electro 3
Linktree: VS languages, my scripts, my bands, my performances...
ANdre_B
Board Master
*****





   
Email

Gender: male
Posts: 2869
Re: Latin gallican [DISPONIBLE]  
« Reply #23 on: Nov 19th, 2023, 11:34am »
Quote | Modify

Pas possible, je ne dirais pas, mais en effet pas toujours facile si on a installé HA dans C:/Program Files/ (aka C:/Programmes/)
 
Pour mes essais, j'ai travaillé avec une installation sur un autre disque.  
 
Mais pour installer un répertoire, normalement il suffira de confirmer qu'on a les autorisations (d'administrateur).
 
Mais je vais le faire bientôt, je voulais être sûr qu'une même table de fragments fonctionne de même dans ce cas-ci, et lorsqu'on la met dans OtherLanguages.myf pour utilisation par le script.  
 
Ce n'est pas évident, car dans les deux cas il y a des erreurs (différentes!) de logique/séquence dans cette table, alors il faut faire des contorsions.
Logged

André Baeck, de retour en Belgique après 12 ans passés dans le Gard.
Windows 11, HA 997e (et précédents)
Pages: 1 2  Reply | Notify of replies | Print

« Previous topic | Next topic »

« Myriad Forum » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.1!
YaBB © 2000-2002,
Xnull. All Rights Reserved.

Top of page
Legal information Cookies Last update:  (c) Myriad